Reader Cheryl Diner writes:

I love Erik’s Typo Tips, however, under the “Quotable Quotes” where he is showing examples it shows (“this”). In this example and also where the (“99”.) is shown the comma and period are misplaced. They should always be placed inside a closing quote.

I asked Erik if his style was European:

It is. But I take issue with the American style: I always put the period or comma where the context needs it. If the quote has a point after it, like a complete sentence, it’s included in the quote:

Groucho Marx said, “I wouldn’t join a club that accepted me as a member.”

(Now, there should logically be a second full point to finish the sentence around the quote, but in German, we neglect that.) But:

He always got gas at the “76”.

Putting them inside the closing quote is an aesthetic decision, not a grammatical one, but it is American usage.

I can’t imagine how awkward it would be to always hit keystrokes for every single contraction. I did it for the word can’t above and it was odd. Why isn’t it the standard for the keyboard buttons and are there ways of programming those characters to show up for the standard quote/apostrophe keys (on a mac)?

I *CRINGE* :) whenever I see all-​caps used. Italics look so much better.

These are excellent tips though!

Thanks for the post. Inter­esting comment on the use of the en dash to separate thoughts. I’ve always liked the look of what he’s suggesting, but I’ve thought the conven­tional use of the em dash is an unbreakable typog­raphy rule.

Onur,

The use of an em dash to separate thoughts is somewhat of an old convention - Robert Bringhurst states that it is remeniscent of “Victorian era” typog­raphy, and has since been super­seded by the padded en dash.

Personally, I feel that there are no unbreakable rules in any design disci­pline, and typog­raphy is one of them. However, one must know the rules in order to break them.

The padded en dash is ugly. The em dash is easier to type and looks better. Bringhurst is wrong; the em dash has not been super­seded.

Rick, I too have a fondness for the em dash. However, I also have to give a nod to Mr Bringhurst, in that if you look at books from 100 years ago and books from today you will almost certainly find that use of the em dash has been drasti­cally reduced. That is not to say that it should be! However, I fear that as the em dash is now so unfamiliar to the average reader, its use can be distracting. This goes against the first rule of type, that it should trans­par­ently convey the message. In my experience, many clients (and designers) have never heard of an en dash, let alone a padded en, and are utterly confused as to how to use them. They generally are used to seeing hyphens (aaaaagh!) and will generally baulk at a full em dash. Whilst freelancing, I was even told by a so-​called “art director” to replace all my en dashes with hyphens “because he liked it like that”. God help typog­raphy, and long live the em dash!

under the “Quotable Quotes” where he is showing examples it shows (“this”). In this example and also where the (“99”.) is shown the comma and period are misplaced. They should always be placed inside a closing quote.

Ugh! This is one of my pet peeves when I read copy. The response to that question is entirely correct and I only wish more people would follow that advise. I think the only thing that irritates me more when reading copy is when people use the inches and feet symbols instead of proper quotation marks.

Why doesn’t anyone bring up, or elaborate more, on the single and double prime characters for feet and inches? Are the keyboard straight up and down hash marks becoming defacto correct after all even with the purists?

How gratified I am to read I’ve been doing the right thing all along! I’ve always surrep­ti­tously used “space endash space” instead of emdashes with no gap either side, house style be damned. I’ve always thought emdashes look awful. Another possibly dodgy habit of mine is to flush bulleted items against the margin and run the copy into an unhyphenated, ragged hanging indent. Nobody else seems to do this but I don’t care. So there.

I suddenly have an urge to know about typog­raphy and this article is very helpful - very clear expla­nation and fluid discussion.

Thanks for these short and sweet tips, I’ll have to send my students over to your blog more often. :)

Also, I’d like to add my vote with Rick and Paul in the use of em-​dashes, I love using them. Regardless, thanks for the tip regarding the padded en-​dash and I will certainly keep it in mind whenever critiquing others’ work.

One last thing, as I didn’t see anyone else comment on it. You indicated:

Beginning quotes are found on the Mac by pressing option-[; closing quotes, option-shift-].

In my U.S. Mac keyboard, to begin quotes is actually option-[ and closing them is option-shift-[

Beginning single quotes are found on the Mac by pressing option-[; the apostrophe and closing single quote, option-shift-].

To begin single quotes in my U.S. Mac keyboard, the key combi­nation is option-] and closing single quotes is option-shift-].

Hope this helps!
:) Cheers!

You’re absolutely right, Robert. Thanks for the correction. I’ve corrected the article.

The form of the quotes depend on the language (french differs from dutch quotes) and the type design. The original Bulmer has very special quotes. In the Adobe/Linotype version they were reversed for the PS-​fonts. In OT one can have both versions.

When I edited at Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, my knuckles would have been rapped had I ever used a padded en (in fact, the managing editor of my division declared that the en dash was an ugly hybrid that didn’t belong in print). However, I still harbor a preference for the padded en, and only reluc­tantly resort to the plain em dash (which in some fonts is horrif­i­cally elongated). But it could be worse: one of my clients insists on double dashes with no spaces on either side.

As a magazine designer, whenever I have been forced to use em dashes in a font in which they are horrif­i­cally elongated (which is ironic, because an em dash is supposed to have a rigidly defined length), I have scaled the em dashes horizon­tally, usually around 75%. You get the effect of an em dash but it is less obtrusive.

(Personally I prefer padded ens, though.)

Regarding the em dash and padded em dash, I’ve found that padding with a thin space in InDesign (Shift+Option+Command M) is a happy medium between padding and no padding. Call me a moderate.

Finally clari­fi­cation on the period/quotation thing! That’s been annoying me all year!

Sandy (May 3, 2008) A pet peeve of mine is when people get “advise” and “advice” mixed up.

I wonder about Capital­ization of words for Extra Emphasis. I personally cringe when I see them in overuse. Any thoughts?

which is ironic, because an em dash is supposed to have a rigidly defined length

The em-​dash did in fact have a ‘rigidly defined length’ back in the day—but that’s because many metal typefaces didn’t ship with certain sorts like em- and en-​dashes, paren­theses, commercial ats, and such. You’d buy them as extra sorts, and as such, the em-​dash was in fact 1 em wide. I suppose so you’d know what you were getting.
If you look at digital faces however, you’ll notice that em-​dashes vary consid­erably in width. Older fonts, presumably those digitized directly from type/punches/matrices tend to have em-​sized em-​dashes. Newer fonts don’t.
Looking briefly at the fonts on my system, Caledonia has an em wide em-​dash with no space on either side. As do Akzidenz and Adobe Garamond. Centaur, Sabon, and Bembo’s em-​dashes are an em wide, and actually kerned slightly off the sides of the body(!)—perhaps being one of the main reasons for this ‘back-​lash’ against em-​dashes.
Not so surpris­ingly, Adobe Garamond Premier’s em-​dash is slightly narrower than the em, with a bit of space on each side of the body. As is Storm’s Baskerville, and Officina Serif & Sans.
Rules are great, but it seems hardly advisable for a typog­rapher to have a ‘rule’ regarding how much space to add to either side of a dash. Being as each font already has a prede­fined, and wildly varied, amount of space surrounding the dash already.

Agreed, Nathan. I adjust whether I use an em dash or padded en dash depending on the face. I feel consis­tency within a giving piece is more important than which particular one is used.

The padded en dash is not only ugly, it is incorrect by most American grammar standards.

Why not just use the Chicago Manual? (Or Associated Press, for commercial or journal­istic writing.) That will answer all questions about correctness. Some issues can be fudged for looks, but in general, follow Chicago style and you’ll be OK. Maybe I’m a purist, but I like my typog­raphy to be not only attractive, but also unflinch­ingly correct.

You write:

(…) I like my typog­ra­phy to be not only attrac­tive, but also unflinch­ingly correct.

But I believe you meant:

(…) I like my typog­ra­phy to be not only attrac­tive, but also to unflinch­ingly conform to a specific set of conventions.

Keep in mind it’s typog­raphy, not mathe­matics. ;)

Thanks for the summary of proper hyphen/dash use!

The salient point re the em dash is being missed here. Although I defer to the deity which is Robert Bringhurst on almost every­thing else, he is wrong about this. (I tremble).

The point is to retain the colour of the line.

The paren­thetical dash should not shout on the page as occurs when the abominable ‘padded en’ is used, with its concomitant ocean of white giving it ridiculous promi­nence. This is to replace one irritant (the over-​long em dash) with something even worse.

The beauty of digital type is that ‘perfect’ typog­raphy is theoret­i­cally attainable: you can set up a character style for a font with an obtru­sively long (or short) dash and scale it to a chaste nicety (the eye, as ever, being the final arbiter) in a jiffy using find/change, even in long documents like books. For a final polish, slot in a hair space either side when the character has zero side-​bearings.

It is an elegant character when its done properly, and aids in the creation of that sumptuous page of good and even colour — a siren call, a seduction, to the innocent browser.

Let’s all agree that the use of the ‘padded en dash’ is a piece of shoddy amateurism, excusable in a typist but deplorable in a TYPOG­RAPHER, and ban it forthwith.